獨(dú)家！CGTN對(duì)話武漢病毒所所長(zhǎng)王延軼

Editor's note: The Wuhan Institute of Virology has been in the eye of the storm since the novel coronavirus, later known as COVID-19, engulfed the world. Leaving almost nowhere untouched, the virus of unknown etiology has so far infected over 5 million people globally, with a death toll exceeding 338,000. It has forced shutdowns worldwide, crippling economies and upending lives overnight.

 

當(dāng)新冠肺炎疫情席卷全球，個(gè)別西方政客為達(dá)某種政治目的，開(kāi)始大肆宣揚(yáng)各種病毒陰謀論。“新冠病毒是從武漢病毒所泄漏的”，就是其中一種。隨著國(guó)際學(xué)術(shù)界逐漸達(dá)成“新冠病毒源于自然界”這一共識(shí)，此類(lèi)陰謀論也隨之破產(chǎn)。近日，武漢病毒所所長(zhǎng)王延軼接受了CGTN的專(zhuān)訪，就一系列與新冠病毒相關(guān)的問(wèn)題進(jìn)行了回應(yīng)。

 

Since the first known cases were reported last December, scientists have raced to find the origins of the virus in the hope of developing a vaccine. In the meantime, a blame game is going on, with conspiracy theories ranging from the virus "leaking" from the Wuhan Institute of Virology to China "concealing" crucial information, despite repeated claims from scientists that it originated from nature.

 

CGTN spoke to Wang Yanyi (Wang), an immunologist and director of the institute, to get her take on these rumors, how she views the outbreak and the progress in cooperating with her international counterparts.

 

CGTN: Since the outbreak began, there has been speculation that the novel coronavirus leaked from the Wuhan Institute of Virology. How do you respond to that?

 

這次疫情發(fā)生以來(lái)，外界一直有一種這樣的聲音和說(shuō)法，認(rèn)為新冠病毒是從我們武漢病毒所泄漏的，才引發(fā)了這次全球流行的這樣的一種疫情。您怎么看這個(gè)問(wèn)題?

 

Wang: This is pure fabrication. Our institute first received the clinical sample of the unknown pneumonia on December 30 last year. After we checked the pathogen within the sample, we found it contained a new coronavirus, which is now called SARS-CoV-2. We didn't have any knowledge before that, nor had we ever encountered, researched or kept the virus. In fact, like everyone else, we didn't even know the virus existed. How could it have leaked from our lab when we never had it?

 

這種說(shuō)法完全是無(wú)中生有的。因?yàn)槲錆h病毒所最早是在去年的12月底，12月30號(hào)，才第一次接觸到，當(dāng)時(shí)還是叫不明原因肺炎的臨床樣本，后來(lái)也是經(jīng)過(guò)了這種病原檢測(cè)的工作，我們才發(fā)現(xiàn)這些樣本里面其實(shí)含有一種以前完全未知的一個(gè)全新的冠狀病毒，也就是我們現(xiàn)在說(shuō)的新冠病毒。在這之前我們是完全沒(méi)有接觸過(guò)、研究過(guò)或者保存過(guò)這種病毒，實(shí)際上我們也和大家一樣，都不知道這種病毒的存在。所以你都沒(méi)有的東西你怎么去泄漏它呢？

 

CGTN: An article published in the periodical Nature in April 2018 mentioned a novel coronavirus originating from bats. And this coronavirus was in your lab. Is this the virus that caused the pandemic?

 

可是我們也同樣在2018年4月的《自然》雜志上看到了一篇文章，提到了我們發(fā)現(xiàn)了一種來(lái)自蝙蝠的新型冠狀病毒，這樣的一種來(lái)自于蝙蝠的新型冠狀病毒是在我們研究所的，是不是這個(gè)病毒引發(fā)了此次疫情？

 

Wang: In fact, many coronaviruses are called "novel" when they are first discovered, such as MERS (the Middle East Respiratory Syndrome), the one you mentioned and SARS-CoV-2. They were all called novel coronaviruses when they were first discovered, which may cause confusion. Actually, the virus mentioned in the 2018 article wasn't SARS-CoV-2. The virus in the article mainly causes diarrhea and death among piglets. It was later named SADS. The genome sequence of SADS is only 50 percent similar to that of SARS-CoV-2. It's a rather big difference.

 

實(shí)際上在很多冠狀病毒被發(fā)現(xiàn)的當(dāng)初都被稱(chēng)為新型冠狀病毒，比方說(shuō)更早時(shí)候的MERS中東呼吸道綜合征的病毒，還有您提到的18年的這篇論文里面的，還包括我們2019的新冠，其實(shí)在剛剛發(fā)現(xiàn)的時(shí)候都被人們稱(chēng)為新型冠狀病毒，可能容易造成這種混淆。但實(shí)際上18年論文里面的病毒并不是我們這一次造成新冠疫情的那個(gè)病毒，那個(gè)病毒它主要是造成仔豬的腹瀉和死亡，所以后來(lái)被我們命名為叫SADS，那個(gè)病毒和新冠它基因組的相似性只有50%，所以可以說(shuō)是差別非常巨大的。

 

CGTN: But in February, the institute published another article in Nature saying you found another novel coronavirus from bats. The similarity between this virus and the SARS-CoV-2 is up to 96.2 percent, which is relatively high. Could it be the source of the COVID-19 pandemic?

 

但是在今年的2月，我們又在《自然》雜志上發(fā)表了一篇文章，提出我們又發(fā)現(xiàn)了一種蝙蝠的新型冠狀病毒，這個(gè)病毒和這次的新冠病毒相似度達(dá)到了96.2%，那是一個(gè)很高的相似度，有沒(méi)有可能是來(lái)自于這個(gè)蝙蝠病毒呢？

 

Wang: The bat coronavirus you mentioned which has a 96.2 percent genomic similarity to SARS-CoV-2 is called RaTG-13. From the perspective of many non-professionals, the similarity rate of 96.2 percent is a very high number. But coronavirus is one of the RNA viruses that have the largest genomes.

 

您提到的這個(gè)和新冠病毒基因組相似性達(dá)到96.2%的蝙蝠的冠狀病毒有一個(gè)名稱(chēng)叫做RaTG-13。可能在普通人看來(lái)，96.2%的相似性已經(jīng)非常高了，但冠狀病毒它其實(shí)是基因組最大的RNA病毒之一。

 

 

Take the SARS-CoV-2 for example. Its entire genome contains about 30,000 bases. The difference of a percentage of 3.8 means the difference of over 1,100 nucleotide positions. In the natural world, it takes a long period of time for a virus to naturally evolve and mutate to become SARS-CoV-2.

 

所以拿新冠病毒舉個(gè)例子，它全基因組有3萬(wàn)個(gè)堿基左右，3.8%的區(qū)別的話，其實(shí)對(duì)應(yīng)的就是1100多個(gè)位點(diǎn)的這種差異。在自然界里面，病毒它要通過(guò)自然進(jìn)化累積到這樣一個(gè)數(shù)量突變的話，其實(shí)需要一個(gè)很漫長(zhǎng)的過(guò)程。

 

Recently we've noticed a statement made by Edward Holmes, a world-leading virologist who studies the evolution of viruses. He believes it would take about 50 years for RaTG-13 to naturally evolve to SARS-CoV-2. The difference of over 1,100 positions is huge. And they should respectively match the corresponding nucleotide positions in the genome of SARS-CoV-2, which means it requires more than 1,100 mutations in these exact positions to become SARS-CoV-2. Thus, the probability is very low.

 

而且近期我們注意到應(yīng)該說(shuō)是全球病毒進(jìn)化的一個(gè)頂尖學(xué)者，Edward Holmes他發(fā)了一篇聲明，就認(rèn)為RaTG-13的話在自然界也需要50年左右的時(shí)間才可能進(jìn)化到新冠。而且你想就是1100多個(gè)位點(diǎn)的不同數(shù)量本身已經(jīng)很大，然后這些位點(diǎn)還剛好都要對(duì)應(yīng)到新冠病毒的相應(yīng)的位點(diǎn)上，就剛剛好是這些1100個(gè)位點(diǎn)發(fā)生突變，并且剛剛好變成新冠病毒的樣子，所以這里面的概率可以說(shuō)是微乎其微的。 

 

Many people might misunderstand that since our institute reported the RaTG-13's genomic similarity to SARS-CoV-2, we must have the RaTG-13 virus in our lab. In fact, that's not the case. When we were sequencing the genes of this bat virus sample, we got the genome sequence of the RaTG-13 but we didn't isolate nor obtain the live virus of RaTG-13. Thus, there is no possibility of us leaking RaTG-13.

 

可能很多人都會(huì)有一個(gè)誤解，就認(rèn)為既然武漢病毒所報(bào)道了RaTG-13和新冠病毒基因組的相似性，那么你武漢病毒所就有這種病毒，但實(shí)際上不是這樣的。我們只是在對(duì)蝙蝠樣本進(jìn)行測(cè)序的過(guò)程中，知道了RaTG-13病毒的序列信息，但我們并沒(méi)有去分離和獲得過(guò)RaTG-13活病毒，所以也就不存在泄漏RaTG13的這樣一個(gè)可能。

 

CGTN: You said the institute didn't have the SARS-CoV-2 nor the live virus of RaTG-13. Since the Wuhan Institute of Virology has been researching coronaviruses, don't you have any live viruses? What does your virus collection center have?

 

您剛才提到了，這次新型冠狀病毒我們是沒(méi)有的,您又提到了RaTG13這個(gè)活病毒是沒(méi)有的，我們其實(shí)一直以來(lái)致力于研究冠狀病毒，在我們的病毒庫(kù)里頭都沒(méi)有活病毒嗎？這是一個(gè)什么樣的病毒庫(kù)？

 

 

Wang: Earlier you talked about some research teams from the Wuhan Institute of Virology. One of the teams led by Professor Shi Zhengli began studying bat coronaviruses in 2004. But its research has been focused on source tracing of SARS. In their research what they pay more attention to, do more research on and try to isolate and obtain are bat coronaviruses similar to the one that caused SARS.

 

就像您剛才提到的武漢病毒所的一些研究團(tuán)隊(duì)，比方說(shuō)石正麗老師的團(tuán)隊(duì)，他們從2004年就開(kāi)始從事蝙蝠（SARS樣）冠狀病毒的相關(guān)研究，但是他們的研究都是圍繞著SARS溯源這么一個(gè)主題所開(kāi)展的。在他們研究過(guò)程中，他們更多地去關(guān)注的，更深入地去研究的以及更希望去分離獲得的，都是和SARS比較相近的這種蝙蝠冠狀病毒。

 

We know that the entire genome of SARS-CoV-2 is only 80 percent similar to that of the SARS virus. It's an obvious difference. So, in Professor Shi's past research, the team didn't pay attention to such viruses which are less similar to the SARS virus. This is why they didn't try to isolate and obtain RaTG-13, since its genome is only over 79 percent similar to that of the SARS virus.

 

我們知道這一次的新冠，其實(shí)它和SARS全基因組的相似性也只有80%，可以說(shuō)還是有比較明顯的差別。所以在石老師以往的研究過(guò)程中，就沒(méi)有關(guān)注這種和SARS的相似性相對(duì)比較低一些的病毒，這就是為什么他們一開(kāi)始沒(méi)有嘗試要去分離獲得RaTG13，（和SARS）基因組的相似性也只有百分之七十九點(diǎn)幾。

 

After many years of research, Professor Shi and her team have isolated and obtained some coronaviruses from bats. Now we have three strains of live viruses. One of them has the highest similarity, 96 percent to the SARS virus. But their highest similarity to SARS-CoV-2 only reaches 79.8 percent.

 

這么多年下來(lái)，其實(shí)石老師他們確實(shí)分離獲得過(guò)一些蝙蝠的冠狀病毒，應(yīng)該我們目前一共有三株。但是這三株病毒和SARS的相似性最高的有96%，但是和新冠病毒的相似性最高的都不超過(guò)79.8%。

 

CGTN: The Wuhan Institute of Virology has been devoted to studying coronaviruses since the SARS outbreak. You've made a lot of effort to track the viruses. After the COVID-19 outbreak began, which is due to a brand new virus, what have you done to track its origin?

 

因?yàn)槲覀儾《舅L(zhǎng)期以來(lái)，自從SARS以后就致力于冠狀病毒的研究，我們可以說(shuō)是深入到很多地方去找這個(gè)病毒，那么我們這次新型冠狀病毒爆發(fā)了以后，這樣一個(gè)全新的病毒，我們對(duì)它的溯源又做了哪些工作？

 

Wang: The current consensus of the international academic community is that the virus originated from wild animals. But we still don't clearly know what kind of viruses that all different wild species carry across the globe and where the viruses that are highly similar to SARS-CoV-2 are. This is why the cooperation between scientists all over the world is needed to find the answers. Therefore, the issue of origin-tracking is ultimately a question of science, which requires the scientists to make judgments based on scientific data and facts.

 

國(guó)際學(xué)術(shù)界關(guān)于這個(gè)病毒的源頭是什么，目前的一個(gè)共識(shí)是它應(yīng)該是來(lái)源于自然界的某一種野生動(dòng)物，但是目前我們對(duì)于全球各地的種類(lèi)繁多的這些野生動(dòng)物上，究竟攜帶著什么樣的病毒？究竟在哪里存在和新冠相似性比較高的病毒？其實(shí)目前都沒(méi)有明確的答案，這就是為什么這個(gè)問(wèn)題需要全世界的科學(xué)家一起合作來(lái)回答。所以溯源的問(wèn)題歸根結(jié)底它還是一個(gè)科學(xué)問(wèn)題，需要科學(xué)家用科學(xué)的數(shù)據(jù)和事實(shí)來(lái)做出判斷。